Commercial Law

“If there are any law students out there reading this, the smartest thing you can do is to ensure that you are capable and literate in technology because, frankly, the way law is practiced is changing at a rapid rate.

Robert Meade is a commercial lawyer, and a sessional academic / tutor at our very own university.

He is currently an in house lawyer at Endeavour Group, with previous experience working in corporate, litigation and construction law.

Could you briefly introduce yourself?

I’m a commercial lawyer currently working in-house at Endeavour Group, the company that owns Dan Murphy’s, BWS, and a few other related brands.

I graduated from law school in the mid-2010s. After that, I spent some time at a private practice firm called MinterEllison, followed by a stint in-house at Crown Resorts, before landing where I am now.

Why did you choose to study law?

It was a bit of a surprise. Initially, I wasn’t exactly sure what I wanted to do. I had the grades to get into law, and I liked the challenge and the idea of it. When I received the grades, I put my hand up and was lucky enough to get into Monash.

Could you describe your law journey at Monash?

My journey was a very interesting one. Not many people from my high school or hometown went into law, so I entered with a whole new group of people. I loved the challenge. It was a great place where I met many of my best friends and had a lot of opportunities to grow. Some of the subjects, electives, and travel experiences I had were pretty incredible. Honestly, it was fantastic—I miss law school every day.

Was there any subject you did that made you choose commercial law?

I don’t think it was any one subject—I think it was a combination. Toward the end of my degree, I took a remedies subject that I really enjoyed. It involved learning about practical approaches to resolving commercial problems. I enjoyed contract law as well. I even liked torts, though less for the personal injury side of it and more for the pure economic loss and major tort issues. Anything involving finding the most pragmatic or commercial way through a problem, rather than ending up in court—that’s the kind of work I really enjoyed. That experience sort of pushed me into the path I eventually took.

Were you always set on commercial law?

No, originally I thought I’d be a construction lawyer, which is a type of commercial law but focuses on things like building contracts, settling disputes over delays, and managing cost blowouts. I practiced in that area for a while, but I realized that what I actually enjoyed was the negotiation, bargaining, and commerciality of it all. The subject matter didn’t really matter—I could be dealing with futures trading, aged care homes, or casinos. What really appealed to me was the nature of the negotiations, not any particular subject.

Did your experience in construction law inspire you to pivot into commercial law?

Absolutely. It really did. It was a lot of fun working on big deals, but by pivoting, I got to work on some smaller and more diverse projects. I’d always encourage people, especially law students, not to lock themselves in too early. Give yourself a chance to explore different practice areas, because many people initially think, “Oh, I want to be this” or “I want to be like that.”

“To be completely honest, as soon as you leave law school, you’ll realize that legal practice is nothing like law school, and the role you imagined is likely not what you thought it would be. So, give yourself the chance to make a few mistakes and figure it out. That was the best thing for me. I was convinced I’d be a construction lawyer, did it for a year, and now here I am.”

Was going from construction law to commercial law an easy transition?

Well, thankfully, I went to a firm that had practices in both areas. I started as a graduate and did rotations through the construction law team.

Construction law is quite commercial at the end of the day. It is quite big but it still revolves around the concept of a deal and you can get the basics (of commercial law) from that. There are specialised construction concepts that unfortunately, I never get to use anymore. But it was a pretty natural transition.

I went to the partners that I was involved with at the firm, and said I would like to try something else and they were gracious enough to let me move into that area. I fell in love with it and, 7 - 8 years later, here I am now.

For all the law students out there who have no idea what goes on in commercial law. How would you describe it?

The simplest way of explaining it is that a commercial lawyer helps people manage risk in everyday transactions. You can do this by entering into contracts. You can do this by monitoring government regulations, by engaging with third parties, and by solving disputes. But at the end of the day, if you’re the type of lawyer who doesn’t go in and out of courtrooms, you are typically going to be called a commercial lawyer unless you’re in a specific area of practice. The way that you operate is to make sure that your client gets what they need, in the cheapest and most efficient way possible.

The most cynical way of describing my job is, I keep my clients out of courtrooms. If they end up in a courtroom, I’ve done my job wrong.

It can be a lot of fun. You spend a lot of time negotiating deals with other lawyers or explaining problems to third parties who just don’t seem to follow. I might be dealing with the CEO of a major corporation or a security guard who’s been injured in a fight—it all ends up being commercial in one way or another.

Is there anything specifically unique about commercial law as opposed to other areas of law?

The most unique thing about it is how pragmatic it can be.

In court, you’re bound by clear rules ofevidence, practice notes, and protocols. The same goes for family law, most statutory law, and criminal law.

But in commercial law, there’s nothing stopping you from pulling the other party aside and saying, “What are we doing here?” Sometimes, you just swap a bit of cash, sign a contract, and get on with business—because, at the end of the day, that’s the goal.

You’re trying to make the law work for people who don’t want to be caught up in it.

It’s very pragmatic, focused on problem-solving, and isn’t inherently academic.

That’s the difference, I think, between commercial law and other areas.

So would you say a lot of your job is just like trying to figure out “okay, what’s the best solution we can possibly get that both parties would possibly agree to"?

Exactly. My clients are happiest when I can step in briefly and then disappear from their lives again.

The longer they have to deal with me, the more unhappy they are.

Could you describe an average day in your life?

Last Thursday was a good example. I started with witness interviews from a staff member who had been injured in an incident. I then spoke with a counter-party and my external lawyers about the issue and worked out our strategy for a quick resolution, considering whether a commercial settlement might save us from going to court.

Then, I attended a meeting with another commercial party about a large deal. We’re negotiating to install new technology in some of our local pubs.

Later, I attended a client event, which was a lot of fun, so I did a bit of networking. I met with some of my external lawyers to discuss a few upcoming matters for which they’re hoping to win work from us.

It really varies. Some days, I’m working on a long-term contract; other times, I’m researching a new government regulation. You may not have noticed, but they recently updated the Privacy Act, so I’ve been looking into how it will impact my business and clients. It’s incredibly varied—you can be thrown just about any kind of problem.

Would you say that much of your day-to-day involves face-to-face interactions with clients, such as in meetings, rather than spending most of your time at a desk?

Absolutely. It’s one of the sad things about being a lawyer and being a grown-up. You just end up in a lot of meetings. Time flies, and you think, “Gee, I’m really busy; I’ve got a lot of meetings on my calendar this week.”

You spend a lot of time talking to people because you learn all the laws that you need to know. But what you end up doing most is communicating those laws to others. You sit down, take them through it, help them, and educate them on how to make smart and risk-averse decisions.

Are there any trends that you’re seeing within commercial law?

Digital disruption is one. If there are any law students out there reading this, the smartest thing you can do is to ensure that you are capable and literate in technology because, frankly, the way law is practiced is changing at a rapid rate.

I am amazed at the number of people experimenting with artificial intelligence to replace legal thought. The kinds of rote, repetitive work that is usually allocated to junior lawyers and paralegals are increasingly being handled by technology.

Even I have managed to convert quite a lot of what I do into automated technological processes. They’re simple and easy to follow. So if you’re looking to be at the forefront of this and want to be part of the next generation of lawyers, technology literacy is the way to go. If you understand how the technology works, you will be far more valuable than a 20-year partner who has no idea how to turn on his own computer.

What sort of technology do you use?

All sorts of things. I’ve used combinations of tools like Microsoft Power BI and ChatGPT.

I’ve used various plug-and-play automation processes, and from time to time, I use a bit of generative AI. The quality of work that can be produced by generative AI tools right now is incredible.

Big warning: it’s not perfect. I often experiment with ChatGPT by asking it questions to which I already know the answers, just to see that it can’t answer them. It reassures me, “I’ve still got a job here. It’s okay.”

Do you think that technology would ever supersede the majority of practice?

I reckon 80% of what I do could be replaced with a bot. It would have to be a very smart piece of technology to handle it. That remaining 20% involves independent, rational, situational, emotionally intelligent thought.

For example, you could program an AI tool to perfectly analyze how to follow the rules of court, the rules of evidence, and criminal procedure, and come up with the perfect outcome.

But I’m skeptical whether generative AI could ever teach you how to go down and apologize to someone, make them feel better, and persuade them to drop their claim. That’s the 20% where lawyers will always be invaluable.

Technology will change the way we practice, but it’s not going to replace us completely.

It was not too long ago that you were a student trying to get into a graduate position, obviously the job market has changed and it’s very stressful for us uni students to go through the application process. Do you have any tips on how to apply for jobs, whether it be how to do an interview or how to write a cover letter?

I really feel for law students. I remember going through it, and it’s getting harder every year because there’s so much competition. I’m sure you’re in the same position, looking around and thinking that everyone seems so impressive.

The first thing I want to emphasize is that you have to remember that you got here for a reason. You’ve done an incredible body of work to get to this point. You’re enough. You’ve done an amazing job to reach where you are, and everyone else sees you as just as impressive as you think they are.

So just remember that and have confidence. We all get trapped in imposter syndrome, but every one of you deserves to be where you are.

The other thing—my more practical tip—is that if you’re going through these processes, it can be easy to get caught up in following the same path that everyone else seems to be taking: ticking off moots, competitions, or specific experiences. You would be surprised at how much the human element comes into job applications.

I’ve hired a lot of junior lawyers and paralegals, and I know many others who have done the same.

“The thing that always makes young candidates stand out to me is their authenticity.

“More than anything, you want to show that you are real, that you can have a genuine conversation, and that you are truly yourself.

So, don’t feel like you have to tick off an activity just because someone else did it or that you have to have a particular work experience because someone else has it.”

Some of the best people I’ve hired came straight out of cafes and had really interesting jobs.

One of my favorite hires ever was someone who worked as a surveillance camera operator. It was such a fun story; sitting down with him was engaging, and he was different.

So be yourself. Be authentic, and let all the things you know you do well show. A lot of people will respond better to you in an interview if you tell them about yourself and who you actually are—not the kind of picture of a law student you think you should be.

Remember, there are humans on the other side of interviews. I mean, you’re a human, and I’m a human. I can see through all the ticks and check boxes.

But what matters is that I can say, “You’re a decent person. You’d be fun to be around. You’re hardworking, and I could teach you how to do the things we need to do.” Very simple.

Did you use that advice when you were applying for jobs in law school?

I wish I had heard this advice earlier.

I applied for clerkships twice. The first time, I went in early and was a completely unsuccessful because I was so obsessed with being and acting a certain way. But the second time, I approached it more laid back and only really succeeded by accident.

I made a Seinfeld joke at the start of an interview once. The managing partner who was supposed to be interviewing me came in a couple of minutes late, bursting in like Kramer. I made a joke without even thinking about it and then we spent the next 45 minutes just talking about our favorite TV shows. We didn’t discuss my background or my resume; we just talked. At the end of that interview, I received a clerkship offer. It was odd because we didn’t have to tick all these boxes, and I didn’t have to prove who I was. It was just... human.

People find the authentic versions of one another far more interesting than the stereotypical lawyers we’re all told to be.

What experience/opportunity would you recommend to law students who are trying to apply for clerkships or get their foot into the door?

Firstly, there is no bad experience. If you learn how to knit, that might be really interesting to someone.

There’s no guarantee it will get you a job, but it’s always worth trying to gain some kind of work experience.

I think there are two main reasons for this. It doesn’t always have to be in a law firm, but the things you’ll learn through any work experience—whether it’s a day, a week, or longer—in a corporate office can teach you fundamental skills, like how to send an email and how to write professionally. That’s one of the problems with law school; you don’t get taught the basics of operating in a corporate environment or as a lawyer. You’d be surprised how often I find myself teaching someone how Microsoft Word works.

If you can, try to gain experience in an office-style environment, whether remotely or as a volunteer.

There are always great opportunities out there. But again, there’s nothing you have to do, and every candidate is different.

Any good employer or practitioner will see people for who they are and think, “Okay, I see what I’m getting here,” and work with them.

How was it being a part of the other side of the hiring process?

When I became an in-house lawyer, I actually hired my own team. I’ve hired junior and graduate lawyers, one senior lawyer, and several paralegals.

The question I always ask myself is, “Could I work with you?” You could be the most brilliant person in the world, but a lot of our practice is about teamwork. One of the things I noticed was that I needed different viewpoints. I’m very much one type of person and lawyer, so I like finding people who are a bit different from me, whether it’s diversity in gender, ethnicity, or language. Different perspectives lead to better outcomes.

But the biggest thing is, could I work with you? If I had to spend 60 hours a week with you, would I want to? Would I be going nuts, or would I be happy about that?

It doesn’t mean we all have to be the same. You don’t have to know all the talking points about the AFL.

Everyone brings different perspectives. As long as you are respectful, warm, and authentic, you’ll go a long way.

What sort of advice would you give to your younger self?

If I’m completely honest, the big mistake I made was thinking my value lay in how hard I could work rather than in how much I could truly contribute. What happened—especially early in my career and even toward the later stages of university—was that I worked relentlessly. There were periods when I was consistently putting in 80 or 90 hours a week for weeks on end.

There’s this idea, especially among younger lawyers, that working excessively is necessary for success. But it’s not true.

The people who work hard yet maintain sensible boundaries are the ones who go further because they have the space to learn and acquire other skills. They engage in new experiences and grow in ways they should.

The first major piece of advice I’d give anyone, whether they’re in university or starting their career, is to carve out time for themselves. There will be tough stretches along this journey, no doubt, but there will also be good periods, and it’s essential to make the most of those.

The other important thing is to be yourself. You’re far more interesting than you give yourself credit for. That authenticity and openness will make you more engaging, relatable, and, frankly, successful.

People who are open, happy, and enjoying themselves tend to go much further, regardless of their chosen career.

Ultimately, if you finish this journey happy and able to practice sustainably, you’re going to go much further in your career than anyone else who’s simply checked all the boxes.